CEO Kingdom Seekers

Ep 17: Walking in Faith as a Next-Level Leader with Kevin Wayne Johnson (Proverbs 11:14)

• Dr. Lee C. Cordell • Episode 17

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Why is there such a massive gap between what people need from their leaders in the workplace, in the church, and in business....and what they're actually getting?

In this episode of CEO Kingdom Seekers, Dr. Lee sits down with Kevin Wayne Johnson, a renowned leadership coach, author, and CEO of the Johnson Leadership Group. 

With 30 years of experience developing leaders across the federal government, corporate America, faith-based organizations, and nonprofits, Kevin has seen the full spectrum of what "next-level leadership" looks like (and what it costs when it is missing.)

Dr. Lee & Kevin's conversation is equal parts practical, biblical, and deeply personal. They dive into what it looks like to walk in faith, the leadership gap that is costing organizations their best people, why church hurt and workplace hurt come from the same root, how to lead across six generations in the same workplace, and what it means to see the person in everyone you lead... not just another worker to manage. 

In this episode, we cover:

  • Why everything we do in life is actually done by faith (and what that means for your business)
  • What "next-level leadership" actually means- plus why promoting your best worker is often the worst leadership decision you can make
  • The data from Barna, Forbes, and Gallup that reveals the massive gap between what people need from leaders and what they're getting
  • Why people leave organizations (hint: the reasons they leave are never the same as the reasons they stay)
  • The church hurt conversation: why leadership failures in the church and in the workplace come from the same broken root
  • How to lead across six generations in the same workplace 
  • The one question every leader should be able to answer about their team (and why most leaders don't know the answer)
  • Why character and willingness to learn will always outperform skills and experience in the long run

Connect with Kevin Wayne Johnson:

Website: thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com

Email: kevin@thejohnsonleadershipgroup.com

Connect with Dr. Lee and the Regulated Roots Community:

Follow on TikTok: @leechelseacordell

Connect on LinkedIn: Dr. Lee Cordell

SPEAKER_00

Welcome to this week's episode. I am so excited. Welcome to our guest, Kevin Wayne Johnson. He's a renowned leadership coach, an author, and the visionary behind the Johnson Leadership Group. With 30 years of experience and a passion for developing next level leaders, Kevin empowers individuals and organizations to achieve operational excellence through dynamic relationships and servant leadership. Kevin, welcome to the show. Thank you for joining us.

SPEAKER_01

Thank you as well. That's a pleasure to be with you today.

SPEAKER_00

So I'm sure you hear this a lot. There, but you got a lot going on in there. You've done some things over the last four decades. You've got extensive experience in both the federal government and as a John Maxwell team leader. I love his books. I'm I've read so many of them. I'm curious, how has your faith shaped your approach in both of those experiences and in this development of what you refer to as next level leaders?

SPEAKER_01

Wonderful start-off question. Because scripture reminds us that we walk by faith and not by sight. But when you really think about it and put it in context, everything that we do in life, we do it by faith. Let me give you a quick example. Millions of us across the United States of America apply for jobs so that we can earn some income to sustain ourselves and our family. Part of the job application process is a response back from the HR department saying, Hey, you're a top candidate. We would love to interview you. Are you interested? And we say, but of course, I would love the opportunity to interview for this job. And we interview. It could be one person or it could be a panel. And guess what? We do pretty well. Guess what? They extend the offer. We get an offer letter. And the contents of the offer letter lays out what we talked about, what we agreed to, the work role, the salary, etc., and the start date. Guess what we do? We jump up and down, we tell everybody we know, I landed the job, I start on Tuesday, I can't wait. But guess what? We never ever ask the HR leader anything at all about the financial institution that they're connected with. We never ask the question in terms of, are you sure you have the ability to pay me? What's your relationship with your bank? Who is your bank? I need to make sure that I'm going to get paid. We never do that. We accept that job offer on faith, and come Tuesday, we're ready to report the duty. So, my experience and my career with the federal government, my connection with the local church as a deacon, an associate pastor, and a senior pastor, and my work now. This will be my 10th year with the Maxwell Certified Leadership Team, has everything to do with taking step by step on faith. We see the long game, we see the desired outcome way in the future, but we're really not sure what road to navigate to get there. So it's all a faith walk and everything that we do. I give that example all the time to keep things in perspective. It doesn't matter what your faith is, everyone can relate to the fact that what we do is by faith.

SPEAKER_00

Yes. I guess I've never thought about that because you're so excited at the opportunity. The excitement is in the potential, it's in the the expectation of hope, right? Things unseen. And I love that too, because if we're willing to put that kind of faith in man, right. And sometimes not have that faith be or that expectation be realized, what a beautiful thing to put that in God as well, because he's told us that there are promises that he's going to deliver on, you know, that we can have that expectation of faith.

SPEAKER_01

I totally agree. And that's the reason that I use that example because people from all walks of life, all industries, all venues. And when I say venues, I'm talking about in the marketplace that would be government, corporate, faith-based, nonprofit, and then academic institutions. Those are the five venues in the marketplace where people work. Although there are different industries, finance, manufacturing, agriculture, technology. I could go on and on and on, but everybody can relate to that.

unknown

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Because we don't ask the question. We're stepping out on faith. It's no different than when you and I pick up the keys to our car, and we fully expect that when we turn it on, it's going to start and that it's going to get us from point A to point B. We really don't even think about it. That's walking by faith. So everything that we do in life is really based on faith. And that's the motivation behind why we do what we do.

SPEAKER_00

What led you to step out in faith to start your own company? I'd love to hear the timeline around that because I'm wondering if there was overlap or it was a nope, there's A, and then there was B, and then there was C.

SPEAKER_01

There was a season of preparation. So I spent 34 years, the federal government, Department of Defense, and Department of Treasury, and I loved it. Absolutely loved it. Lots of good support, lots of advocates, sponsors, and champions along the way. They really showed me good leadership that I could one day model and pay forward for thanking them. But five years from retirement, I actually start to put my plan together around what I wanted to do next. And part of that would be the connection with the Maxwell Certified Leadership Team because John serves as our senior mentor. We have access to him once a month, sometime sooner, for him to pour into us all of these principles and strategies around being a good leader. Because deep down in my heart, I truly believe that better leaders help to make the world a better place. And nobody will disagree when I ask the question, don't we need a better world? Everybody universally says yes. So that was the start. Interestingly enough, because of my motivation and my inspiration and really my encouragement when I'm working with people, whether I'm speaking or working with them face to face, is to be prepared, just to always be prepared. So I've prepared five years out. Once I've retired, I was able to step into this company that the paperwork had already been done. In my mind, I had already envisioned what I wanted to do and how I was going to do it and why I wanted to do it. What's the motivation behind it? To help people, to pour into people. And so literally, two days after I officially retired on October the 31st, on November the 2nd, I was already at work on my first contract.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_01

With the federal government. Now, I was spoiled. This came through a relationship that I had with the chief learning officer of that government agency. I had an opportunity to go to her office. I briefed her and her deputy. They liked what they heard, and they gave me an opportunity. A relatively small four-figure contract, but moving into this new venture, having never been an entrepreneur, you're laser focused in your career. I hadn't been an entrepreneur, didn't really have any role models, but it was something I wanted to do because I knew I didn't want to go back to the traditional nine-to-five. So here I go again, taking this walk of faith and just believing and putting it to practice. Faith without works is dead. So put it to practice. And lo and behold, this year will be year number eight. Still in business, still thriving, still pursuing new opportunities, still developing new relationships, still winning new clients, still adding new things that I didn't know last year to the repertoire going forward so that we can go north and not end up going south. So it's really exciting because you learn something new literally every day. It's always learning. And then I can take that learning and then apply it to the methods that I use to train, to coach, and to teach others. And it just keeps a smile on your face because you're doing something that you love. But at the same time, there's those unknown challenges that you run into. And the question is, are we going to allow the brick wall to stop us? Or are we going to find a way to go under it, over it, or around it? And that's the mindset of an entrepreneur. Entrepreneurs hustle more so than anyone else because there's so many unknowns. Government shutdown, for example. You don't anticipate that. COVID-19, you don't anticipate that. So you have to pivot, you have to shift, you have to amend, you have to modify and revise your whole game plan in order to remain effective, efficient, and relevant in the marketplace because it's very competitive out here.

SPEAKER_00

Okay, there's like three things you said. That was so first of all, you reminded me. So my husband and I are the first ones in our like first generation to not be in the military. So my grandfather was a lieutenant colonel in the Navy on one side, my other grandfather was in the army. And my parents used to always joke there's an old movie, and maybe you might know the title of it. Like there's a scene where the woman has joined, I think it's the army, and there's a brick wall, she's trying to get over it, and she can't get over it, and she can't get over it. And her commanding officer says, Walk around, sugar britches. And my parents used to always say that to us when we'd be in a situation that we were experiencing resistance. They're like, Walk around, like it can't get over the wall. If you can't like, don't keep trying to bash yourself against it. Like, go go find find another direction.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. And I think we're on the same page because I think that was an officer and a gentleman.

SPEAKER_00

It may be, but so funny that I don't think I actually ever saw the movie. I think I just heard my parents say it so many times. Um and the other thing that you said that I think is interesting, and I wanted to ask you about this, is you had so much success from an employee perspective and from a rising up the ranks in that traditional environment. And then you're making a pretty significant pivot now. To be fair, if you're in government and in bureaucracy, there is a level of uncertainty in that space that I think is probably translates well. All great to entrepreneurship. And there's still there's a lot less uh oversight, there's a lot less boundaries, restrictions, structures. And so I'm curious how that transition felt for you going from these places that it was very this is how you do the thing to okay, now you can do it any kind of way.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, like the way that you asked the question, because you're right. The only thing constant is change.

SPEAKER_02

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

And because change is always occurring, you get used to pivoting and amending and revising and modifying the game plan or the way forward. Because I during my time with the federal government, both defense and treasury, I lived through about 20 reorganizations over 34 years. Some were major and significant and quite big, some were much smaller. But when those things happen, you have to go with the flow because it's forced on you. It's not usually a volunteer situation. And so stepping out into being an entrepreneur is the really the same thing. It's what I learned that I can apply and I can also teach others because things are always changing. All of my leadership development training prior to the pandemic, all of it was in person. And from time to time, depending on what city I would go to, my family would want to go with me. If I'm going to warm weather like Los Angeles or Tampa, anywhere down south where the weather is really nice and they can go out and do different things while I'm working, they would travel with me. But once the pandemic hit, we had to really strategically think about the way forward. And we had to go virtual. And so you had to learn all the different platforms Microsoft Teams, Adobe Connect, Cisco WebEx, and then of course Zoom. And we also had to rewrite the curriculum and the PowerPoint slides so that it would fit the needs of the clients that were serving. And so for about three years consecutively, it was all virtual, no more in-person. Now, fast forward, we're back to in-person, but quite a few of our clients have remained virtual because they got used to it, they save money with the travel budget, et cetera. But I always prefer in-person. But guess what? My job is to serve. So, what does the customer want? And how can I best deliver that? And they've specifically raised their hand and say, Kevin, we really want you to do this using technology. We don't want to send our people all over the country. And that's just one small example. There are many other examples as well, but that's what the federal government career taught me around being able to shift and pivot to meet the needs of those that we're serving. And it's worked out well.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. I think that that level of flexibility and the ability to not resist change, not to create change for change's sake, but to, like you said, go with the flow and also be willing to offer ideas and go first and say, hey, can I support in making that? It is wild to me how few people do that. And how impactful it is when you can kind of step out and say, you know what, let me try to be more of an early adopter here. Let me see if there's a little bit of innovation I can do. How can I support instead of going, oh my gosh, this isn't a change that I want to have happen.

SPEAKER_01

Exactly.

SPEAKER_00

I see that as a quality of successful leaders, like just being able to not move urgently, but pivot intentionally. And I know that you talked a lot about this idea of generating next level leaders. How do you define a next level leader?

SPEAKER_01

I define it this way, and I'm going to paint a picture because I love telling stories because people can relate to that. Anytime you hear that term next level leader, what we're doing is we're preparing the bench. We're preparing and we're equipping and we're developing those that are coming behind us because we want them to be ready to rock and roll once they move up to that next level of responsibility. Because what we always remind people is at that next level is also going to be visibility and more accountability. More people are going to have more to say about you because more people now see you. So you have to be prepared. So anytime you hear that term next generation leader, it's like succession planning. It's like the next wave of really, really good candidates that need to really understand what they're about to step into. Because there becomes a time now where we no longer really need to roll up the sleeves. We've demonstrated that we can do that. But when you move into that really key leadership position and you're entrusted to lead others, it's all about now making sure we take care of them who will be doing the work. Yes, in an emergency, we can step in and we can roll up our sleeves. That's not really what we're there to do. We're there to mentor, coach, pour into, develop, equip, give them encouragement, motivation, and inspiration to be the best that they can be because we see the potential in them that perhaps they don't see in themselves. And that's the difference between leaders who have been prepared to step into that role versus what many organizations do. They find someone who's really, really good at their work role. And because they do that so well, now they promote them into a position where they're leading other people and they haven't been trained. It's a different ballgame. You're dealing with personalities, you're dealing with the human element, you're dealing with personal agendas, you have to have conflict management skills, you need to be an active listener, you need to understand how to develop good working relationships, not necessarily making friends, but having that type of a relationship where you don't have to mandate, dictate, and threaten, but you can just ask. And when you have a good working relationship with people around you, all you have to do is ask, and they'll be more than happy to get it done. And so that's what I mean by next generation leaders is we're developing that pool so that they're ready because now they're going to be much more visible and there's going to be a higher level of accountability. And we don't want anyone to fail. We want everybody to just skyrocket and do well, take the organization and the team to the next level, take them further than I could take them and not be afraid of that happening. And that's the difference maker, and that's what organizations need.

SPEAKER_00

You put that just so beautifully because I have seen that working in several large organizations where you watch somebody get promoted into a position and you can see like this person was not set up for success. And with some mentorship prior to stepping into that role, that could have been an entirely different scenario. And yet now there's a visibility and an accountability issue. And a lot of times it does, it falls on that person. And in reality, if we zoom out, it's a question of okay, who decided that was the person to come into this place? And was there an assessment of what this person was going to need in order to be successful? One of the most recent John Maxwell books I read was his developing the leader within the 2.0 version. We've talked about this in several of our programs in terms of leadership development and spiritual gift development, is the five levels of leadership. And I think that is so congruent with what you were just saying here around the the top leaders, you follow them because of who they are. And it's beyond how they treat you, it's beyond how they help you get results, it's beyond the fact that they're your boss, so you have to, or that you like them, they make you feel good. It's really, this is a person whose character, even when they make mistakes, uh, we joke, it's like I follow them off a cliff because that I would trust that they know that there's something below that cliff that we're gonna land on and we're gonna be better off. It's that level of actually to bring it back around, it's that level of faith in this person's character.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, you summed it up extremely well. And the other thing that's really key about the word faith that I want to touch on briefly, when you have faith in a person, what you're also saying is that I have confidence in them and I believe in them. And that is so uplifting. Because of how we're created, we all need and we all crave affirmation, some more so than others. But even the leader at times would like to hear something kind from somebody as it relates to the type of work that they're doing. And because we all need some affirmations, when you demonstrate that you have faith in a person or a team or an organization, what you're saying, at least the message that you're conveying, is that you know what, I believe in you and I have confidence in you. And that is so incredibly uplifting because we all want and need some form of affirmation. Now, that's an extension of leadership as well. It's a delegate balance. Again, some need it a little bit more than others, but everybody would like to hear from time to time. I'm really proud of you. You're doing a great job. Good work. I'm so glad you're on our team. It doesn't have to be every day, every week, or even every month, but every now and again, just remind them. Because if we don't, they could make the assumption that we're taking them for granted. And they may leave the organization. I call it voting with your feet. Sometimes people don't have an exit interview when they leave the organization, and we never find out why they left. But if you get a chance to corner them and you have a conversation about it, a lot of people will just open up and say, they took me for granted. I just didn't feel appreciated. And I want to go work somewhere where I feel appreciated. That's part of your Human behavior that we have to be aware of.

SPEAKER_00

I I know that experience intimately of it's when you've got somebody in a position where they want to grow, they want to change, they want to learn, they want to advance and not just for themselves, but to help others to make the world a better place. And that's not met with enthusiasm, even if it doesn't have to be a yes. It doesn't have to be a, oh my gosh, yes, we're gonna do what you're thinking about, we're gonna implement that tomorrow. But the idea of thank you for caring. Thank you for being invested in this organization or in your role to the point that you want to see positive change. I watched so many leaders in spaces I was in over the years leave for that exact reason of they came in enthusiastic and hungry and excited. And after several years, it's oh, actually, it doesn't matter if I do a great job or I do a mediocre job, I'm getting the same feedback. And if you then have someone else come alongside another organization or another person and say, hey, I see you and I see your enthusiasm, and you would really appreciate that over here. I always say this is that the reasons that people stay and the reasons that people leave are not the same reasons. So people leave when a need is going to be better met and it's not being met, but people stay as long as that need is being somewhat met. So we really have to pay attention to those needs. And like you said, one of the needs, different levels for different people, but it's do I feel like I am seen for the contribution that I'm making here?

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. That's a question that people are always asking to themselves. They don't usually say it out loud.

SPEAKER_00

No. Oftentimes they say something different. And that's it. Is they're like, oh, is it the pay? Is it this? Is it that? And especially if you've got a great leadership team, people will stay for less pay. They they'll stay and work overtime and not get paid. They'll they'll move heaven and earth.

SPEAKER_01

They will.

SPEAKER_00

But there's not enough money in the world to make somebody stay if they don't feel like they're if they're growth-minded or growth-oriented, if they're uh contribution-oriented, there's not enough money in the world to make somebody stay if they feel like they're not contributing.

SPEAKER_01

Absolutely. Because see, now we're we're not we're not ministering to the whole person. See, leaders are ministering, and it again, it doesn't matter your faith. You're we're ministering, we're serving because people have emotions. You have to be aware of their mental health, you have to be aware of their physical health, and that makes the totality of the person. And so if a person feels that they don't fit in, they're not really included, they don't feel valued, no one's listening to my opinions, they don't even care that I'm here. I didn't get a chance to go to the training class. This is what they're saying. What happens, it impacts their emotional health, their physical health, and their mental health in a negative way. And they sense it, they know it, they feel it. And instead of continuing to feel that way, now it's time to vote with my feet and let me go somewhere where I am appreciated. And that's another principle that we want leaders to know. This is much more than just what we know. I'm talking about in terms of acumen, subject matter expertise, and intelligence. It's leadership is much bigger than that.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

But it's also a matter of the heart. And we have to, as a leader, make sure that we're being respectful, that we understand active listening, that we value people, we actually care that they showed up today, recognizing that people need affirmations, different amounts to different people, but you have to get to know your people and you have to get to a point where you're allowing your people to know you. You're knowing them and they're knowing you. And that comes from a good conversation, some open dialogue and discussion on different topics. And at a certain point, once you earn that trust and once you earn that respect, again, it's all about the ask. You no longer have to threaten, mandate, and dictate to people. You can just ask. And like you said, they're more than happy to get the task, the initiative, the action, the project, whatever it might be, they're more than happy to get it done with a smile. And now you have cohesion on the team. You have a great organization that's going in the right direction. And now we can move on to bigger and better things.

SPEAKER_00

I want to ask, I wasn't planning on coming over here, but feeling led here. In your work as a deacon, in your ministry as a pastor, I so much of what you're talking about here, I think, actually translates to churches as well. And I know that a lot of people listening to this podcast, just from understanding our audience, there is there's church hurt, right? And especially I think it comes up if you are in a leadership position and you experience another leader like violating that relationship you've described here, I think it hits especially hard. And so I'd love to just hear some of your perspective on that because I don't typically get to ask that sort of question. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah. Thank you, Dr. Lee. It's a really, really relevant and applicable question. Uh having worked in both the secular and and then and then, of course, being actively engaged in ministry for 26 years now, serving the local church. There's a saying, I get it from scripture, and somebody else may have come up with it. I don't know, but it's just something that I share with people, and it's really, really simple. And it goes as follows wherever you go, there you are. So it's a matter of not being perfect because none of us are, but it is a matter of consistency, doing our best to be consistent wherever we are, at home, with our neighbors, at the grocery store, at church, at work, in our social and civic organizations. Let's show up as the same person and be consistent. Now, when we do that, we now usher in more opportunities that wherever we are, we have opportunities now to uplift people, to encourage and inspire people as opposed to beating them down. And again, nobody's perfect, but we can strive to be consistent in every area. There is just as much church hurt as there is hurt in the workplace. One of the things that I do in terms of statistics and data is I read and study Barna, I read and study Forbes, and I read and study Gallup. And the statistics are pretty similar depending on what venue you might be in. It could be in the government space, in the corporate space, where there's really a high pressure to generate revenue in the academic space, in nonprofits or in faith-based organizations. They're people, they're still people, and people want to know that their leader cares, that their leader will provide some hope, and that their leader will help. And what happens across the board when that doesn't happen, we crush people's spirit. But it's the same across all of the different venues in the marketplace. So those three sources that I quoted has a lot to do with the work that I do. And in the past, I've actually done some business pitches where you can pitch your business in front of a group of panels and try to earn yourself a $5,000, $10,000 grant. And what I do is I reference this data and these statistics. And what I always start out with is, ladies and gentlemen, I'm Kevin Wayne Johnson. I'm the CEO of the Johnson Leadership Group. We are a global leadership development and executive coaching firm. And the reason that I chose to move into this particular area is because all of the data consistently shows that there's a wide gap between what people are looking for in their leaders and what leaders are actually delivering. And so I asked the question how can I help to narrow that gap? And then we start to have that conversation. And it's so true. On the government side, we have an entire government agency that tracks this. It's called the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, EEOC. That's all they do, they track the number of complaints from employees about how they're being treated, how they're being led, how they're not getting what they need from their supervisor, their manager, their leader. And they keep formal records and they testify before Congress, and Congress will call different leaders and different organizations to come in and explain their position. And it's been that way from the time I was a young pup all the way up until the time that I've retired. And I've been retired now seven years, Dr. Lee. And I'm going back and I'm sharing this information with organizations. And I said, not only do we need to do right, but we can do right. And let's have a conversation about it. And we begin to walk them through. And the organizations that are much more receptive to understanding that the data is true are the organizations that now move into some type of a formal leadership program for their leaders and they start to turn things around. Those that reject it continue to have numbers and numbers of people to vote with their feet, and they're always scrambling. Their human resources department is always casting out the wide net, trying to get some great candidates to come into their organization. And sometimes they get them, they interview them, they offer them an extension, they get an offer letter, they come in, they get a brief orientation, and they go to work. And within a few months, they're gone.

SPEAKER_02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01

They just wash, rinse, and repeat over and over again. And we can do better and we should do better.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. This point I think is particularly valid. So I have a nearly 16-year-old and two 13-year-olds. And I'll be 40 this year. So what I see as a quote unquote elder millennial in comparison to my parents who baby boomers and to my kids, my children's generation truly, they care so much more about their experience. And I love that. Love that for them. And it's also something that's so fascinating as I'm seeing, okay, we've got four generations that are in a workplace, and the commitment to doing good work, the value of contribution, the value of loyalty, and then also these values of fulfillment and satisfaction, all of those are beautiful values. And if you have a leader who has been trained in, okay, I'm going to make sure that people are being seen for what they're contributing and I'm going to value loyalty. And you have other people that say, yeah, loyalty is important to me, but even more than that, if I'm not able to be home at five o'clock for my children, then my satisfaction is going to go way down. And that's going to impact my loyalty to you. And this is the back half of that sentence, because it feels like you don't care. And so I've been in conversation with people who are in older generations who they've said, I don't understand. Like we can't keep staff. And we have that conversation of, okay, well, tell me about what your staff values. And they can't answer the question. Wow. Wow. Like your average worker is 20 years old. I will tell you, they're not valuing probably what you're valuing at the same time. Because I see what the average 20-year-old is doing today versus what I was doing at 20 and what my parents were doing at 20. And I'm like, yes, it's the same age range, but it's profoundly different values. It's profoundly different experiences and developmental points on the journey. And so I think that's also part of this, is that there is, there's so much data. And also, if you just go ask them, they will tell you. And I saw this a lot when I was in healthcare, is I'd be in a meeting with leaders and we'd be having this conversation about changes that were going to be happening at the front line. And I'm in my doctoral program, I'm still working on the front line, and I'm going, I don't think they asked anybody on the front line if this was going to work for them or not, because I already see seven issues with this plan.

SPEAKER_02

Wow.

SPEAKER_00

So it sounds like what you're doing is really creating an opportunity for these companies who are receptive but maybe haven't thought of some of these things. Because again, we don't know what we don't know.

SPEAKER_02

Right.

SPEAKER_00

But you're putting data in front of them, which I think is data works.

SPEAKER_01

Yes. You can't dispute it, especially when it comes from reputable sources. Again, Barna, Forbes, and Gallup. I consistently read the data that they regurgitate, that they provide, it's all quantifiable, validatable, verifiable. And that's what I share. And the organizations that might have a clue that they need some help, when they see that, that really puts them over the fence. Some of the organizations, because they're so actively engaged with their mission and their vision, they don't take the time to stop to consider it. And this gives them fuel and tools to say, you know what? Time out. We should do this. So that's why I always start out with the comment that I made a little bit earlier, just like I do in front of a group when I'm giving a pitch, to play the ground rules. And that opens up the door now to have a conversation. Well, Kevin, how can you narrow that gap? I'm glad you asked. And then we talk about it. Everything from influence to effective communication to personal and professional growth, leading through a crisis, active listening, conflict management, you name it. Organizations and leaders within those organizations need to be equipped with those tools. And that's exactly what they are. They're tools and your toolbox. You bring out the necessary tool from your toolbox as needed, just like a plumber does, just like a roofer does, just like a car mechanic does, and just like a carpenter does. They all have toolboxes, but they use different tools for different purposes. And it's the same thing with leaders. Carry your toolbox. And if you have a challenging person, you're going to use a different tool than someone who's pretty introverted and really doesn't like to be in groups. But we have to teach them that teamwork is the dream work. And so you may be an introvert, but you can still fit into this team and be valuable in terms of a contributor. And so when you take a look at that spectrum, that spectrum is pretty wide. And we help these leaders and these organizations to better understand that.

SPEAKER_00

That's amazing. You just actually reminded me, I had a flashback to, again, in my doctoral program, I was sitting in on fellowship interviews for advanced practice providers. And I was with one of my all-time amazing mentors. And I remember I'm watching her interview 10, 15 people. And at the end, they're talking about who they're choosing. And there were a few that I was surprised by. And I said, May I ask what led you to extend an offer to these two? And she said, I would so much rather have a person who I can tell has strong values and characters, who has less of a skill set, and who demonstrates a strong capacity to and willingness to learn because I can teach that person how to do anything. I can't teach someone who doesn't have a capacity and willingness to learn. That's wonderful they're coming in and they've got all these skills and they've got all these tools, but they might use those tools in a way that doesn't work here. But if I try to come and teach them, hey, instead of using that hammer here, I want you to use whatever screwdriver or wrench, they're probably gonna fight me on that. So that always stuck with me is is she said now as a mentor, I can figure out how to mentor any of these people. And if I'm choosing, I'm gonna choose the person that is ready and willing to learn.

SPEAKER_01

That's a great lesson.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, it was it really it was a huge shift for me to go, okay. I'm not always choosing the most experienced person, I'm choosing the person that I, you know, if both of these people had a year to learn, who would I choose? Oh, well, that's a different story.

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, yeah. I like that. That's a great lesson that's built into that, right? Attitude, willingness that gets into personality, right?

SPEAKER_00

Yeah, and it's that adaptability, it's that innovation and that willingness to pivot. So if you were going to share one of the top lessons you learned as somebody whose faith is very strong, working in a more secular space, what would you share with a leader who's maybe who finds themselves in that position and is maybe struggling with marrying those two roles or those two sides of themselves?

SPEAKER_01

Yeah, regardless of what environment I might be in, because I spend quite a bit of my time in both environments. But when it's all said and done, people are people. And what I remind people and what I remind leaders in particular is to be mindful that you are leading a person who is much more than just a worker. And be mindful of the fact that you and I have issues and concerns and challenges, and so do they. And so if you were to walk in their shoes, think about now how you would ask them to handle the task or the action that's before them. And to just be considerate of the fact that you're working with a person and not just a worker. Now, I put it in perspective because I know we're here to get a job done. I know we're here to make sure that we meet the needs of the customer and the stakeholder. I get it. But we can still do it in a way where we're effective and we're efficient because we're dealing with a person who is probably dealing with issues, challenges, and complications in their lives. You mentioned a little bit earlier, Dr. Lee, that there's four generations in the workplace right now. I would submit to you there's five.

SPEAKER_00

Actually, you're right that I was thinking about it because I'm like, they're the alphas are coming at the end now, aren't they?

SPEAKER_01

And you mentioned the baby boomers, but ahead of the baby boomers are the traditionalists, those that were born before 1945. There's not very many, but there's still some that are showing up to work every day because they like what they do, or there's a financial need, or both.

SPEAKER_00

So really, there's six. Amazing.

SPEAKER_01

You have a new group of individuals coming in who are 21, 22 years of age. So you see how it span is a very, very wide spectrum, and every single person on the spectrum, including that leader, is dealing with something. So let's be sensitive. We're not doormats, we hold people accountable. I get it. But let's think about how we can motivate and inspire and encourage to the point where we're all working together collaboratively and in cohesion. That's the responsibility of a leader. It's no different than in sports, it's no different than on the academic debate team. It's the same type of motivation and inspiration that we use to get people to tap into their potential to be the best that they can be.

SPEAKER_00

I think that is a perfect end cap. Thank you so much, Kevin. I would love to share with our listeners where they can find you. I'm sure several of them will want to go check out our business and the work that you're doing. So where's a good place for people to find you?

SPEAKER_01

Oh, thank you. The name of the company again is the Johnson Leadership Group. This year will be in our eighth year. The website is www.thejohnson leadershipgroup.com. And my email address is guess what? Kevin at the Johnson Leadership Group.com. There's a message there. I tell entrepreneurs, make it easy for people to find you.

SPEAKER_00

Yes.

SPEAKER_01

Don't give people a 32-syllable email address.

SPEAKER_00

Yeah. Right. Yeah. And if you're listening while you're driving and you didn't catch it, I'll make sure all of this is in the show notes below so that you can connect with Kevin further and read more about the amazing work he's doing. So thank you so much, Dr.

SPEAKER_01

Lee, for having me.

SPEAKER_00

Oh, absolute pleasure. I truly appreciate it. Thank you for being on.

SPEAKER_01

All right.

SPEAKER_00

And to our listeners, thank you so much for tuning in, and we will catch you next week.